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 Post subject: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:45 am 
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If you've ever wondered why the old pumpkin slinger was a .69 calibre, rather than something of which the EU would approve, like a .70 calibre, and why it's replacement was a .58 cal. rather than a .60, read on.

Back in olden times, devices like vernier calipers and micrometers didn't exist. This made measuring and gauging barrel dimensions pretty tricky. Of course, if the village gunsmith was knocking out a musket for a local customer, who cast his own ammo anyway, it didn't matter that much - as the customer could be supplied with a bullet mould to go with the gun, and the gunsmith could make them as a matched pair.

However, when whole armies started using firearms, and wanted bullets which could be used by any musketeer, matching became very important. Not that it was critical whether the bore size was 0.303" or 0.304", you understand; just so long as they were all the same. The way they got over this was to set the gauge by what they could measure fairly easily; the weight of the projectile. Standard weights, believe it or not, go back a very long way. Kings started bellowing for the axeman if they thought coin minters were short-changing them on the weight of coinage, and had standard weights to check the coins against.

These, naturally enough, came in equally handy when checking bullet and cannonshot weights - where the crown had an equally close interest. After all, if you have a standard weight of one pound, it's simple enough to divide it in half with no more than a wooden beam and three bits of string - do the same three more times, and you have an ounce; easy peasy (which is why there are 16 ounces in a pound, and not 10). So cannons and smallarms were defined by (for cannons) the weight of the shot in pounds; and (for smallarms) by the number of bullets, for a particular bore, which weighed in total one pound.

For example, if you take the bore size of a 12 bore shotgun, a lead sphere which just fits in the barrel weighs one-twelfth of a pound. For a 20 bore, the ball would weigh one-twentieth of a pound, and so on.

Hence, the pumpkin slinger is .69 calibre, which makes it a 14 bore, and it's .58 calibre replacement is a 24 bore. The still later 'volunteer' Enfields, at .451 calibre, are 50 bores. The picture is not quite tidy, as some operating leeway had to be allowed. In muzzle loaders, particularly before the Minie bullet was invented, with it's easy fit and scouring effect, there had to be enough slack in military small arms to allow bullets to be rammed home despite the fouling caused by many previous charges of black powder. Once the Minie bullet came in, and even more so after the introduction of breechloaders, the tolerance between bullet and barrel could be held far more tightly - and the bullet could actually be made bigger than the barrel.

In any case, by that stage, Henry Maudslay had perfected his measuring instruments to the point where dimensions could be checked routinely to within one ten-thousandth of an inch - a far cry from 30 years or so earlier, when George Stephenson was mightily impressed that he could barely fit his little finger between the piston and the cylinder on his 'Rocket' steam loco! :D

But, even so, centuries of thinking in terms of bore sizes were well established, and gunmakers carried on using the system, although there was no reason why they could not have produced firearms with any decimal measurement (in fact, as you're probably aware, shotgun makers still do use bore sizes based on the old system - well, if it ain't broke, why fix it?).

For early muzzle loading revolvers, we have .44 calibre, which is 54 bore, .41 is a 68 bore, .36 is 100 bore, and .32 is 140 bore - quite a drop as compared to early 19th century flintlock pistols, where 15 or 16 bores were run of the mill! The Brown Bess, by the by, a .75 calibre, comes out at an elephant gun sized 11 bore - NOT recommended for use with Minie bullets (unless you have a special deal with your local physio! :shock: ).

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but . . . the bullet used in NATO rifles (a puny little pop-gun effort, in my anything but humble opinion) has a diameter of .223" - and, despite the fact that it's called a .22, so has the humble .22 Long Rifle rimfire round, used for everything from Olympic target shooting to rabbit hunting. Would you believe that size equates exactly to a 420 bore?

(for the relevant data on the mass/volume of pure lead, and the formula for the volume of a sphere of given diameter, I'm indebted to the engineer's handbook published by 'Machinery', an American trade journal. This Bible-sized tome, complete with Bible-thin paper and tiny print, cost me an arm and a leg when I bought it about 30 years ago - and it's been worth every penny!)

With best regards,

Jack

PS have been signed off by the docs, and start work tomorrow afternoon!

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Co. A, 19th IN Vol. Inf.

"Gen. Grant stuck by me when I was mad; I stuck by him when he was drunk; after that, we stuck by each other." (Gen. W.T. Sherman)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:42 am 
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http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/shotshellloads.html

THIS IS THE SITE I USE TO WORK OUT LOADING ETC ETC. For when I take muskets out for clays. although this is Uber accurate it does seem to agree nice wth Jack, wonder why I never noticed, even though I did think it convenient that they were close.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:25 pm 
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Thanks for the pointer to this site, Christian - a lot of useful info there.

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Pvt. Enright, J.

Co. A, 19th IN Vol. Inf.

"Gen. Grant stuck by me when I was mad; I stuck by him when he was drunk; after that, we stuck by each other." (Gen. W.T. Sherman)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:34 am 
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http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html
I also use this one Jack. By the way if you have a query you can Email Mr Cushman on the first site, very nice guy, real knowledgeable.
My pleasure Jack.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:56 am 
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It should be noted that .58 Minie balls and .577 Prichett balls are a heavier than spherical .69 pumpkins and a little more than as the .71 spherical undersize balls for a bess.

I wonder whether not using a lighter projectile was a tactic used to keep the doubters quiet when the decision to use a smaller bore had to be explained to politicians?

I better Submit now before I spend another two hours looking for a feared fluid dynamics book researching completely tangential information and stop trying to estimate the difference in aerodynmic drag between a minie ball, a sphere and a boat-tailed spitzer ball from ballistic tables. I'm also wondering if the groves on a Minie promote separation of the airflow reducing drag like the dimples on a golf ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:57 pm 
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There is also the point to be made why American smoothbores were .69 cal. The French supplied the Rebellious colonials with huge numbers of Muskets and other supplies durring the Revolutionary War. Many colonial militiamen also carried old french muskets captured durring the French and Indian War. French muskets were .69 cal so once the Americans became independent they looked to their french made weapons when they began to produce their own muskets.
Indeed the over all appearance and furniture of their weapons remained fairly similar from the 1795 springfield right up to the 1842 model.

1766 Charleville (Huge numbers in Continental Army use by 1780)
Image

1795 Springfield (First weapon produced at the Springfield armoury)
Image

1842 Springfield (Last model of Smoothbore produced by Springfield Armoury)
Image

Indeed so desperate were both sides for weapons that they pressed old models, converted to the percussion system, into service from the very start. Logistically this was a good idea given they were all of the same calibre, the problems came when the troops had a mix of rifles and imported european weapons in a huge mix of calibres from the .54 Austrian 1854 rifle musket up to weird things in .80 which I think came from germany of belgium, dont have the source to hand for that one.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:14 pm 
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MUST - RESIST - URGE - TO - BUY - 1766 - CHARLEVILLE . . .!

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- Putting Down Rebellion and Sedition from 1775-1865


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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:14 am 
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EdW wrote:
MUST - RESIST - URGE - TO - BUY - 1766 - CHARLEVILLE . . .!


RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

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Last edited by Martin E Cross on Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:17 pm 
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EdW wrote:
MUST - RESIST - URGE - TO - BUY - 1766 - CHARLEVILLE . . .!


Well, of COURSE you must, Corporal - pull yourself together, that man!

You know as well as I do that any man of breeding and taste really, really wants a Parker-Hale .451 Volunteer . . . :lol:

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Pvt. Enright, J.

Co. A, 19th IN Vol. Inf.

"Gen. Grant stuck by me when I was mad; I stuck by him when he was drunk; after that, we stuck by each other." (Gen. W.T. Sherman)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:06 pm 
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Boys boys, no

A Whitworth if you please, but is it really rifled?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:09 am 
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Andy1863 wrote:
Boys boys, no

A Whitworth if you please, but is it really rifled?


Well, of course! Five grooves, of a deep triangular form :lol:

I must admit that Mr Jos. Whitworth's rifle does have one advantage peculiar to his design; if it fails in service, you can always saw the barrel into short lengths, drill a couple of radial holes through each length (of a size suitable for a tommy bar), and use them as box spanners . . . :wink:

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Pvt. Enright, J.

Co. A, 19th IN Vol. Inf.

"Gen. Grant stuck by me when I was mad; I stuck by him when he was drunk; after that, we stuck by each other." (Gen. W.T. Sherman)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:41 am 
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Elliot thinks different!
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Well it is an Enfield of sorts!

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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:47 am 
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I was going through some of my ammunition collection, from left to right we have in the front row .58 Minie ball and 1861 specification cartridges, a Federal cartridge broken open between the ball and powder cup, and a Gardner style .577 round. In the back row, we have a regular garden variety pumpkin, an unknown round possibly confederate given the colour, and I think a pumpkin Minie but I'm not sure. Can anyone help?


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Charles Elwood
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 Post subject: Re: Why Pumpkin-Slingers Were 69 Cal.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:44 pm 
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Ok, pumpkin jokes and other silliness aside, I had a chance to handle a 1766 Charleville repro and was most impressed. It's not as hugely heavy as the '42 repro that I have come to fear. This makes the 1766 a spectacularly good coffee and hardtack grinder. Yes, I test these things.

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